An Interview with Swami Sarvadevananda
Contributed By - A Phoenix Devotee
Q & A during Swami Sarvadevanandaji’s recent visit to Ramakrishna-Sarada Vedanta Center of Phoenix—a center associated with the Ramakrishna Mission, India
Part I
Swami Sarvadevananda of the Ramakrishna Order of India (hereinafter called Swamiji) with its Headquarters at Belur Math, India (http://www.belurmath.org/) was interviewed during his recent visit to the Ramakrishna-Sarada Vedanta Center of Phoenix in the valley. Swamiji is the minister-in-charge of the Vedanta Society of Southern California, Hollywood (http://vedanta.org/). He conducts classes, discourses, retreats, etc. on the principles of Sanatana Dharma (Vedanta) and participates in inter-religious dialogues throughout North America. He visits the Phoenix Center every other month to give classes, provide guidance to spiritual aspirants, and spread the universal message of peace and harmony enshrined in the teachings of Sri Ramakrishna, Sri Sarada and Swami Vivekananda.
Pranam, Swamiji. Thank you so much for taking the time to meet with me for this interview despite your hectic schedule. I have five major questions. It would be great if you would please respond to them for the benefit of all spiritual aspirants who read AZIndiatimes.
Question: Both science and spirituality try to reach the goal of the eternal quest of ultimate truth. The former is based on physical evidence; the latter relies on inner experiences. An ordinary person is at times confused because science cannot prove certain things, and spiritual convictions don’t have tangible and physical proofs. Which path should one take?
Answer: This is an excellent question. Science is in search of Truth—the mystery behind the world and the universe. Science has progressed significantly in every field—physics, chemistry, astronomy, neuroscience, medicine, etc., but it has not reached the point where it is able to find eternal peace and eternal joy. Remarkably, scientists have researched the microcosm (electron, proton and other fundamental particles) and the macrocosm (sun, earth, moon, milky way, etc.), but many questions remain unanswered. Scientific findings are all dependent on the objective universe as seen through the five senses and precise instruments. Therefore, the truth so far revealed is relative in this case.
Spirituality is also in search of Truth at a much greater depth. It is to see what is behind this universe and behind the individual—externally and internally. However, spirituality deals with transcendental reality. Swami Vivekananda said, “Each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest this Divinity within by controlling nature, external and internal. Do this either by work, or worship, or psychic control, or philosophy—by one, or more, or all of these—and be free. This is the whole of religion.” The goal of spirituality is to reach freedom from all bondage, suffering, anguish, anxiety, and fear. Mind is the only tool here. By refinement of the mind, the spiritual aspirant finds higher and higher dimensions of Truth, and ultimately reaches a point where the mind becomes mindless, or the search transcends the mind itself, when all apparent duality disappears. At that point, he or she experiences the absolute and all-pervading consciousness and bliss, which is called Brahman in Advaitic language, and is also known as God, Atman, or Nirvana. This state of total absorption is called God-realization, or attainment of Nirvana, etc.
There is a remarkable difference between these two approaches, i.e., science and spirituality. Science takes us to a place of infinite wonder, contemplating the complexity of the universe. As it cannot transcend and does not accept anything without the testimony of the senses, dissatisfaction and doubt remain. On the other hand, spiritual exploration by controlling the mind and diverting focus from external objects to internal feelings gives aspirants the tangible experience of higher and higher realms of joy, bliss, and peace. As the spiritual aspirant proceeds on and on with the help of a purer and purer mind, the seeker reaches a state of experience which is beyond questioning, confusion, and doubt, and ultimately merges with infinite bliss.
We have seen that scientists become philosophers. When the quest for Truth with all possible instruments fails to give the experience of perfect joy, peace, and bliss, a further quest comes. That is not through any instruments; rather they drop everything and become philosophers. Spirituality is not contradictory to science; rather with the foundation of science, spirituality grows and develops into its fullest form. Albert Einstein said, “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” Science and religion should go hand in hand in order to explore the Truth. One leads to the other. Ramakrishna, Buddha, Christ, Shankara—all the great saints and sages of every religion had transcendental experience. When they attain transcendental experience, they gain peace, joy, solace, happiness—not only for themselves, but for all humanity—and then work to create a different world which is full of bliss. So, I suggest one should explore spirituality with a scientific outlook. Spirituality without a scientific approach may lead to delusion. Science helps us understand the material world, and spirituality with a scientific approach helps us to plumb the depths of the Spirit.
Question: How can we differentiate between good and bad or right and wrong? What is good or right from a particular perspective may be bad or wrong from another perspective. How are “paap” and “punya” differentiated?
Answer: Very true that both good and bad exist, but there is no absolute good or absolute bad from the perspective of Vedanta. Good may be considered good for somebody, but the same thing may be bad for someone else, and vice versa. Sometimes we are really puzzled, trying to differentiate between good and bad, between right and wrong. That is our weakness, and we often fail to choose correctly.
As Swami Vivekananda said, that which brings peace, unselfishness, love, or holiness is called good. That which brings selfishness is bad. Everyone understands an action—when he/she feels peaceful and joyful, that is good. If after doing something, one repents or regrets, that is bad. The question is: are we growing in unselfishness, or in selfishness? Are we thinking of others first, or are we thinking of ourselves first? Shankaracharya said in the Brahmasutra, “aham idam mama-idam iti naisargikah-ayam loka-vyavaharah.” Human behavior is centered around me and mine. That is the root of all evils. It may be personal, it may be in a family or in a community, it may be in a religious denomination—I am and my religion is true, and you are and your religion is wrong. This notion is really bad—it creates difference, dissention, even destruction. What is good? Swami Vivekananda makes it simple: that which brings welfare, benefit, peace, joy, blessings to the society following the path of unselfishness is good. What is bad? That which makes one greedy, selfish, mean, unkind, and creates trouble for others.
We have to judge our every action: am I doing any good to others? Is it really uplifting me from my lower nature to my higher nature? Lower nature is the animalistic nature where my personal gain is everything, whereas higher nature recognizes that the welfare of others is important. It is the same with right or wrong. There is no absolute separation.
Paap is demerit and punya is merit. When you do any work, it brings either merit or demerit, or usually, some combination of both. One can understand it this way: if the work becomes a source of pain and suffering for others, it is sinful (paap); if it is doing good to others, it is meritorious (punya). Swami Vivekananda said, there is no paap or no punya. Why? When people commit paap ignorantly, they are on the lower platform. When they can think higher, they do punya. That’s why Swami Vivekananda taught that we move not from error to truth, but from lower Truth to higher Truth. If someone moves toward lower Truth, it may be called committing paap, but when someone is elevated to higher Truth, then it may be called an act of punya. The concept is that paap brings mental agony leading one to hell and punya leads one to heaven. Heaven means the mind becomes full of joy and peace, whether in this life or an afterlife. Vedanta suggests that one should elevate the mind to higher levels and try to do more punya.
Question: How does the transition from life to death take place? When the mind stops functioning as life comes to an end, does consciousness still ‘feel’ and ‘understand’ what is going on?
Answer: According to Vedanta, consciousness is always present, whether I am awake, whether I am sleeping, whether I am dreaming. Consciousness, that is somebody behind me, says, I slept, I had a dream, or I had a good experience or bad experience. What is that “I”? It is somebody who is not connected with the body but observing the functions of the body. Consciousness is always there even when we die. When death happens, the physical body drops off. Identification with the physical body goes. If a wave of the ocean subsides, does it really get destroyed, or does it become the ocean? Similarly, when the physical body goes, the subtle body remains. The subtle body transmigrates from one body to another body to another body, until the person becomes tired of searching for joy and truth in the outside world and understands, “I am not the body, I am the Spirit, I am the eternal Witness of this changing world; I am the Consciousness behind.” So, consciousness never goes, consciousness never comes, rather consciousness is always and ever present.
When the brain ceases functioning, we call a person brain dead. When that happens, though the mind’s instrument, the brain, has died, the mind does not die: it separates itself from its temporary abode, the gross body. It remains in the subtle body (which consists of 17 principles, including mind and intellect). When the physical signs of life stop, someone is pronounced dead. In fact, we are dying every moment because our old cells are dying, and the body is constantly changing. But Absolute Consciousness never dies. Yes, consciousness remains all the time with the subtle body, and feels and understands everything at the time of death.
The Ramakrishna-Sarada Vedanta Center of Phoenix is located near ASU-Tempe. Prayer, meditation, reading of Hindu scriptures, singing devotional songs, and annual events are coordinated by Pravrajika Akhandaprana. For additional information, please visit the Center’s website (http://vedantaphx.org/) or contact Mataji at 480-656-7230.